SDPB's 'Guns In South Dakota' Finale

Apr 30, 2021

Americans' love affair with guns begins at an early age. Sometimes we set aside our childish fascinations and fears as we grow. Sometimes our connections with hunting, shooting, surviving, or protecting, evolve into a more nuanced and mature relationship with firearms.

Often those stories feed into our personal politics as we seek to sort through some of the most challenging issues of modern America, gun rights and gun regulations, gun safety and gun violence.

Our April SDPB spotlight on guns in South Dakota began with a simple question. What is one of your earliest memories that relates to guns?

As we recap the multiple viewpoints of the project, we will begin with a few of those stories. First, you'll hear the voice of SDPBs Larry Rohrer. He was one of several staff members who shared personal stories. Then you'll hear from two listeners who each called in with stories of their own. And finally, you'll hear from NRA Certified Firearms Instructor, Matt Schlueter, all of them sharing one of their earliest memories about guns.

Larry Rohrer:
"I've been hunting for a long time, first with my father riding along, and then it drifted away from my life and came back with my wife, Marilyn, and her family, and a long tradition of hunting and caring for land and made a part of it. And then a puppy came into my life. Oh my gosh. You know, and it was a puppy that taught me how to hunt. And you may have heard me talk from time to time about when I... I like to hear when I get a chance to travel around the state and talk to people, what is... What would be your perfect day? You know, if you could design a day in South Dakota, what would be the thing you do? And I want to take, oh, spend time with my kids or whatever out of it and just say, 'No, this is for you.'

"And I asked that question because mine involves a hunting for the state game bird later in the season, when the out-of-state people are gone middle of the week, when it's quiet, being out there with the dog and that's the perfect day. And it involves a gun, but the gun is not the centerpiece. It's being out there to do that and the gun is part of it. So, I feel comfortable with that. There was an incident completely a juxtaposition to that in about 30 some years ago, where we're playing music with my friends in a place in Sioux Falls, afterwards in the parking lot, wound up looking down the barrel of a handgun from someone who was very drunk and thought we were doing causing some problems. And there's a very weird ending to that story. No one was hurt, but the person with the gun killed himself a few weeks later. So, I've been on either side of that, but the hunting one is the one that I associate with where we are and part of the lifestyle, but don't see it as the centerpiece."

South Dakotan 2:
"And my first memory would probably have been my Bat Masterson outfit, with the six shooters, and the vest, and hat, and the business card that said, 'Have Gun – Will Travel'."

South Dakotan 3:
"My first real memory of guns is when my third grade classmate was shot and killed by his babysitter using my classmate's mother's handgun that she kept in her bedside table. We had guns in our house, but I had never really thought about them. And later when my sister took hunter safety and went out hunting with some friends and my dad, I just never showed an interest. And it hasn't been until I became an adult that I've connected my disinterest in guns and my current dislike of guns to that classmate being shot and killed. And now, it makes me, as a parent, concerned about my children, spending time in people's homes who have guns, which is almost just an assumption in South Dakota. Thanks."

Matt Schlueter:
"I was seven."

Lori Walsh:
"Seven."

Matt Schlueter:
"Yeah. Welcome to America. My dad made me go to the city dump with him to help unload his F-100 pick up. And we get done unloading and we're at the city dump, I grew up in a really small town, and he looks at me and he goes, "Oh, look the city bar dumped all their bottles." And I was like, "Oh." And he goes, "Go pick up those bottles and put them on that tree stop." And by the time I get done, I mean, I'm seven years old. I really didn't realize what he had planned. He had pulled out a single action Ruger 22 caliber pistol. And he goes, 'Well, it's probably time you learn how to shoot.'"

Lori Walsh:
"And you had no idea that was coming."

Matt Schlueter:
"No. We didn't use eye protection. We didn't use ear protection. I mean, my dad had his own way of teaching, probably not to the... What everyone would consider the NRA standard for instruction, but it was all there. Keep your finger off the trigger. Keep the gun pointed in a safe direction. This is how it works. Guns are dangerous. And, of course, he demonstrated that by then sending me out to fill bottles full of water. But anyways, road bitch. So, you could watch them explode."

Lori Walsh:
"Right."

Matt Schlueter:
"But, to a little kid, these things are important, but you don't see a lot of that today."

Every story has a beginning. Those early memories of contemporary South Dakotans intersect with the intentions of America's founders. Here is the text of the second amendment to the US constitution, a well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. We asked longtime congressional staffer, Chuck Parkinson to help us unpack the early scholarship on the second amendment.

Chuck Parkinson:
"One sentence has caused lots of conversation over the last 200 plus years. In the original days when the... After independence was gained and the constitutional convention set up, there was a great fear that existed about the tyranny, which they had led up to this particular point, because in the past, what had happened was that monarchs in Europe had used their armies to force the populace to do certain things. And so, as things evolved, when the Constitutional Convention came together, the Federalists and the Anti-Federalists where the Federalists wanted a strong central authority and the Anti-Federalists were very strong about keeping the authority at the states. There isn't much actually written about the second amendment debate during the Constitutional Convention in 1787.

"In fact, James Madison kept really deliberate notes on the convention and he didn't write a single word about the individual's rights to a firearm. The main focus was on a well-regulated militia and the discussion that took place really was based a lot upon writings of Alexander Hamilton, who wrote in the Federalist papers 29 and 49, that the right to bear arms really referred to military activities of a well-regulated militias, and the fear being that if the states had the militias, they would be able to act to protect those particular states."

Centuries have passed since Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, and John Jay wrote the Federalist papers defending the new US constitution. SDPB Seth Tupper joined the program with a little history of the culture and conversation of carrying guns in Dakota territory.

Seth Tupper:
"When I went back and did the research on this a couple of years ago, I found out that basically for 155 years, the carrying of concealed weapons in Dakota territory, and then South Dakota, was either banned or allow it only with a permit. So, it's not until we got... We just got rid of that permit requirement a couple of years ago. The history of this all goes back to the winter of 1864, 65. And that was the year when the territorial legislature passed an outright ban on concealed weapons, meaning you were just forbidden to carry concealed weapons at all. And that was part of a nationwide trend in response to gun violence, where all but a handful of US states had outlawed concealed weapons by about 1900. And there was a widely held opinion among some people that carrying a concealed weapon rather than an open weapon was somehow inherently suspicious.

"And there was plenty of evidence of that in the newspapers of the day. You think about Deadwood, for example, in 1879, guns were the cause of a lot of violence. And that year, The Black Hills Daily Times newspaper, editorialized that carrying concealed weapons was a quote, "Barbarous and unlawful practice." The Daily Deadwood Pioneer-Times, I found another editorial there where that paper said, the carrying of concealed weapons is not suited to an enlightened people and promotes neither good order in the community nor courage in the individual. And there's The Black Hills Daily Times and another editorial came on the strongest. And this was... I love some of this old newspaper writing just for the language, but there's also obviously a message here. They said, quote, 'Let the strong social condemnation of our people make this practice infamous, let education quicken the public conscience, let the pulpit do its duty against this un-Christian habit. Let the press fearlessly speak it's powerful reprobation that our officers shall feel justified in suppressing this uncivilized and ferocious custom.'"

The year 2020 saw increased gun violence in America, 2021 dawned with several high profile mass shootings in states across the country. In South Dakota gun deaths can be less obvious. In 2019, for example, 113 gun deaths were reported. 87% of those were suicide by gun. The state has the seventh highest firearm suicide rate in the nation, and here's where we're at legislatively, open carry and permitless concealed carry are legal for residents old enough to purchase a firearm, that's legislation from 2019.

In the 2021 legislative session, lawmakers grappled with a revamping of the state's self-defense laws, as they debated house bill 1212. The bill failed, was smoked out of committee, and eventually passed, proponents say, it shores up second amendment protections. It's what is commonly called a Stand Your Ground Bill. Opponents argued that the new law returned South Dakota to a wild west mentality where residents can shoot first and ask questions later. So, in a debate that has become politically polarizing, is there room for common ground? Here's Political Science Professor, Pam Carriveau from Black Hills State University.

Pam Carriveau:
"I think there is room, and even the Supreme Court would say that there's room. District of Columbia versus Heller in 2008, and then McDonald versus Chicago two years later basically said, "Recognize that there is an individual right to possess arms. It's no longer associated with a militia right." But those cases both said that this is not an unlimited right. We can regulate unusual firearms. We can prohibit felons and people who are mentally ill from possessing them. We can prohibit possession in sensitive places like schools or government buildings. And essentially, the essence of that... Of both of those decisions is that guns are... It's an individual right. And people can have them in their homes for personal protection. But once we start talking about activity outside of the confines of the home, that can be regulated.

"And ultimately what we're seeing, actually, is an increase in people who are single issue pro gun control voters, and that's their top issue. And that's what they're going to vote when they vote for candidates. That's what they're looking for. And I think ultimately, that's the key. We're going to need more political mobilization around pro gun control in order to change the debate, move the debate from this all or nothing conversation."

Just like there are single issue voters for gun control laws. There are single issue voters for the protection of gun rights. Matt Schlueter is a certified NRA Firearms Instructor, and he has seen a significant increase in South Dakotans seeking training and certification for enhanced gun permits. He says more and more south Dakotans are exercising their second amendment rights, thoughtfully and responsively.

Matt Schlueter:
"I grew up around guns. I used guns. I hunt with guns, my favorite type of hunting, believe it or not, is black powder hunting for deer with a muzzle loader in our state. They give me a really long season to do it with. And it's more challenging because you only get one shot typically. That being said, I have hunted deer with an AR 15. I like shooting them. They're fun to shoot. They have a place. My wife hunts, when we rifle hunts with our rifle tags in South Dakota, but we both use an AR 15 base rifle, so I don't think you can classify a tool ass being bad.

"You really have to concentrate on... It's the actions by the person using it. If we're to talk about criminal behavior, if a criminal used a rock to kill somebody we're not going to ban all rocks. And if the criminal went out and got drunk and drove through a crowd of people in an open air event like a spring or summer concert venue, we're not going to ban all the cars, because obviously these people have issues first... To be in the frame of mind, to commit a violent act against other people, whether it be with your hands feet or a weapon of some type, I don't know how you get there, but we got to hold those people responsible for how they made that choice and making that choice."

The South Dakota State Legislature has spent years now examining and rethinking how the state responds to mental health crises. Remember those 113 gun deaths in 2019 and how 87% of them were death by suicide? Here is Karen Pettigrew, she's from Rapid City and she leads a local gathering of Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America. I asked her how she leads people to think more deeply about saving lives in South Dakota in a time when refusal to find common ground can be our default.

Karen Pettigrew:
"I think we approach it to emphasizing gun safety and a culture of gun safety. Being aware of the incredible responsibility that it is to be a gun owner and then going from there to the need to protect others from easy access to guns when harm will result, that would be children, children in homes, children who are visiting grandparents, children who have play dates. It involves emphasizing the importance of securing locked and unloaded guns in motor vehicles because theft of guns is a very common occurrence and stolen guns are always used in criminal activity. So, I think the emphasis that... On safety is something that people on the spectrum from those who choose not to own guns, to those who collect and own many, many guns. I think we can agree that, that this is an awesome responsibility and there are ways to protect and reduce the incidents of gun violence by being a responsible gun owner."

Today, we have offered you a recap of our SDPB Spotlight on Guns and South Dakota. You can find full interviews and more coverage on the April Spotlight topic on our website SDPB dot org slash spotlight. And no, we have not answered all the questions you might have about guns in the state.

There are plenty of stones left unturned, but we have offered multiple perspectives. And when you talk about guns, gun violence, and gun rights, we hope those multiple perspectives will help you find a little common ground to move the conversation forward for us all.