This interview originally aired on "In the Moment" on SDPB Radio.
Three senators are pushing to be the next Senate minority leader, including Sen. John Thune. We turn to our Dakota Political Junkies for their analysis.
They discuss the candidates and the type of leader needed to run the Senate efficiently.
David Wiltse, Ph.D., and Lisa Hager, Ph.D., are associate professors of political science at South Dakota State University.
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The following transcript was auto-generated.
Cara Hetland:
Before the break, you heard SDPB's Lee Strubinger's interview with US Senator John Thune. They covered a variety of topics, including Senator Thune's bid for the Republican Senate leadership position. The current leader, Mitch McConnell, will step down this November. So we're now turning to our Dakota Political Junkies for their analysis. Lisa Hager and David Wiltse, our associate professors of political science at South Dakota State University, and they both join us from SDPB's Jeanine Basinger Studio at South Dakota State University to discuss Senator Thune's candidacy and who else is seeking the post. Lisa and David, thanks so much for taking time and being on the program today. Appreciate you.
Lisa Hager:
Great to be here, Cara.
David Wiltse:
Thank you.
Cara Hetland:
So let's start with this positioning for the leadership position in the Republican Party.
Lisa Hager:
Yeah, for sure. So I think what was really interesting, at least initially was there was just kind of this opportunity to just kind of be appreciative of McConnell's leadership from the Republicans before there really was much of a discussion about who could potentially fill his post. And then what the running joke ended up being was that it would be somebody named John. And so obviously here in South Dakota, we know about Senator Thune, but then there was also discussion about Senator John Cornyn from Texas and Senator Barrasso from Wyoming.
Cara Hetland:
And so how is it shaping up now?
David Wiltse:
Well, I think one of the things that I've noticed between the leadership struggle in the House of Representatives and the Senate is that a very different wing of the party is front and center in this leadership debate. The Senate for a variety of reasons just hasn't allowed the more Trumpist, more radical wing of the Republican Party to really take center stage in their leadership struggle. Whereas opposed to the House, their caucus is very responsive. And if you want to have any consideration whatsoever as leader, you're going to have to pass those fealty tests. And so far the Senate has been pretty, or Senate Republican Conference has been pretty resistant to that same trend.
Cara Hetland:
Can that change though?
David Wiltse:
Slowly.
Cara Hetland:
Okay.
David Wiltse:
Things just happen at a different pace in the Senate.
Cara Hetland:
Okay.
David Wiltse:
A lot of it has to do with just the kinds of people who wind up in the Senate in the first instance. But you do your more reactionary types, Ted Cruz, Tommy Tuberville, and a variety of others. But those are the kinds of people that just don't find themselves in the mix of leadership races in the Senate, whether they be Democrats or Republicans for just the way the conference operates, the way the rules are structured, it's just more difficult for those folks to make headway in these kind of leadership contests.
Cara Hetland:
And are we going to... What should we really watch for as Senator Thune's and the other senators wanting this position? As Senator Thune eluded that it's a conversation with his colleagues, but what do we really need to watch for when they speak publicly?
Lisa Hager:
I mean, I think some of what we were seeing from Senator Thune in his interview that we just listened to is very key. So he's trying to talk about his approach to leadership and he was saying a lot about common sense approaches to various issues where he's showing that he realizes that you need to be working with others from the other party. And yeah, we might not get the kinds of deals that we like, but we do have to work with these folks. And so I think he's trying to show how he would approach issues, but at the same time talk about how he's going to try to make sure that what he's doing is benefiting the Republican Party, particularly Republicans in South Dakota. So he is trying to make sure there's always that direct connection to back home as well, which as he said was some of Senator Daschle's issues at the time in which he was running against him.
David Wiltse:
And I think that we don't see as clearly and as openly is what the role is of these individuals when it comes to support and fundraising for others within the conference. One of the things that the House and Senate do share in these contests are the people who just percolate to the top are very good at fundraising. They have very large committees that they are establishing that funds other candidates, that directs money towards the party. And all three of these guys, but Thune and Cornyn in particular are very good at raising money and distributing that money around the conference.
So this is one of those things that is going to be largely determinative, not entirely, but it's going to be a big factor in who winds up on top. And as of right now, some of these newcomers like Cruz, like Tuberville, these guys don't really care about their fellow senators in that same way, and they don't extend those kinds of courtesies and resources that people like Thune and Cornyn do.
Cara Hetland:
It appears that Senator Thune has adopted the traditions in the US Senate and hasn't really changed.
David Wiltse:
That's one of those norms in the Senate that very few people violate, and that's been there since time immemorial. It is very risky for someone to really come out and throw rocks at Senate procedure, throw rocks at the rules, things like the filibuster and cloture and don't even touch apportionment.
Lisa Hager:
Right. Yeah, I mean I think with Senator Thune and just the Senate in general, you don't have too many people who are tending to have it be more about them and their persona and wanting to spend a lot of their time working on kind of being a talking head on the 24-hour news networks. So in the Senate, they all see there's not very many of us. We all need to try to be working on these issues because it's important to our state.
So one of the things you always hear Congressman Johnson talk about is kind of the work horses and the show horses. You have fewer of those show horses in the Senate. You have many more people who are willing to roll up their sleeves and start getting to work on policy issues.
David Wiltse:
And another thing we're not going to see enter the equation here is a big negotiation on the rules. In the House, I mean, that was central to Mike Johnson's assent as speaker was how he was going to rewrite the rules to empower that small corner of the party, which just ousted his leader and proved to be the decisive votes for him getting in. You're not going to see that in the Senate side. The Senate just values the institution to a degree that they're not going to dink around with that kind of stuff.
Cara Hetland:
So let's switch just a little bit to the big budget battle showdown, and then you have the two different chambers and how they behave, I'm going to say as an old woman, how they behave is showing its colors.
Lisa Hager:
Yeah, I mean, for sure. So we see again some of the more right-wing side of the Republican Party coming out and criticizing the types of deals that are getting made because they just don't really like the nature of what those funding packages look like. So currently the big one we're talking about is homeland security because it has to do with what's going on at the southern border. So when they're not really getting exactly what they want, they're taking to social media, even writing dear colleague letters that they're issuing in Congress to say, "We really want to just vote no on this. Let's reject this and start over." Where others are saying we're not going to get what we want. So similar to what we were seeing Senator Thune talk about earlier where we are not always going to get our way in order to actually get things done. And so again, that really just shows the strength that that more conservative wing of the Republican Party has in the House versus how you see the Senate operating.
David Wiltse:
Yeah, the zero-sum terms of House politics just doesn't fly in the Senate in the same way. I mean, that's not to say the Senate has become more cantankerous over the years, but it just hasn't swung as hard towards that more reactionary impulse that we see from folks in the House leadership now.
Cara Hetland:
Could it swing that hard with new members and more people coming in with this next election?
David Wiltse:
Well, membership changes more slowly in the Senate. Each election, you have one-third turnover. So you're not going to have the same kind of effects of a new class of senators come in in any given moment. And just for a variety of reasons, the norms of the Senate have just endured better than they have in the House. And I think part of that is just because of the slow turnover and, again, the kinds of people that wind up in the Senate in the first instance.
So it does shift. I'm not saying it's a static institution, but it just changes a lot more slowly. And at some point this tide will shift and things will be moving in a different direction and the Senate will move slower. That's just how it's built.
Cara Hetland:
I was kind of struck by the conversation Senator Thune had with Lee when he disagreed with something Donald Trump said. And I'm just wondering how you handle that. If Trump is elected and Senator Thune is the leader, how do you handle that disagreement?
Lisa Hager:
Right. Yeah, because when Senator Thune came out and endorsed President Trump, there was a lot of chatter about how he likely did that because he's vying for leadership in the Senate. But I think it is important for anyone in leadership not to just be a ditto head of President Trump. I think it is useful for them to try to set themselves apart very like what Senator Thune was doing, where he didn't necessarily agree with the way in which President Trump made his comment about Russia attacking NATO members who are not paying their fair share, but at the same time pointing out it is a problem that NATO members are not paying their fair share but the way in which we couch that comment needs to be better than what it was. And so I think that's a very good way to adeptly maneuver disagreeing with President Trump, but not saying everything he's saying is wrong and getting yourself into this anti-Trump camp that some Republicans have found themselves in, which then somewhat ostracizes them from the party in a lot of conversations about a variety of policy areas.
David Wiltse:
And look at how McConnell dealt with Trump when he was majority leader in the Senate. He was not rubber-stamping things coming out of the administration. In fact, he was an important check against some of the legislative ambitions the President had. I expect if Thune were to find himself in the position or any of these folks found themselves in the position of being a majority leader under President Trump after the next election, it'll be a similar story. And if you look at just the legislative accomplishments of Donald Trump, we're not talking about a huge number of things. Most of the things that he really had an impact on, he was doing through executive order and other means around the legislative process. So I think the past is a really good guide for what might come in the next few years.
Cara Hetland:
The checks and balances, isn't that how government was designed?
David Wiltse:
Something like that. Madison.
Cara Hetland:
All right. I want to thank you both for taking time and coming on the program today. I appreciate it.
David Wiltse:
Thanks.
Lisa Hager:
For sure. Thanks for having us.
Cara Hetland:
My guests have been Lisa Hager and David Wiltse. They're associate professors of political science at SDSU and our Political Junkies for today.
